Bob's thoughts on God's judgment of nations
were especially thought provoking: "Don't misunderstand; I
believe that if a country (or an individual) follows God's principles, it can
only benefit them. But God is not in the business of moral reform. He's in the
business of creating new creatures in Christ Jesus
Sin surely causes death, and God warns about that. Jonah warned Nineveh that in 40 days their sins would cause Him to destroy them. The Canaanites' sins had reached the point of destruction during the time of Moses. And Sodom and Gomorrah had clearly reached the saturation point (though for reasons other than what we've often been taught).
But what sense would it make for God to prompt a culture to moral reform without the message of eternal life? It seems clear (at least to me) that his warnings were given so that people would remain alive to hear about His grace.
However, we can't warn of impending doom because we're not God. We have no idea, for example, where the United States stands on God's spectrum of sin (though we hear about it all the time)."
Of course Canadian Atheist's comment on Bob's
comment was as would be expected: "Sounds extremely superstitious
to me."
Bob's parenthetical remark that "... though we hear about it all the time" is so true. Preachers, especially those on the right and
those who fancy themselves as experts on biblical prophecy are often heard
ranting on this topic. Every natural
disaster is interpreted as a sign of God's wrath, usually in regard to sexual
sins, especially homosexuality.
Of course, those on the secular left often
have similar sounding messages, only without God being mentioned. Global warming, the gun culture, racism are
often invoked as signs of the downfall of America.
But does God hold nations accountable? Does He hold the United States of America
accountable? Will God judge
America? If so, by what criteria will
our nation be judged? I do not believe
these are simply "superstitious" questions. I do not believe they are only on the minds
of preachers on the far ends of the spectrum.
Questions like these were on the minds of some of America's great
leaders and thinkers.
"Indeed I tremble for my country when I
reflect that God is just" -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia (1784).
"Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we
pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all
the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited
toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be
paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so
still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous
altogether.'" -- Abraham Lincoln, Second Inaugural Address (1865).
Both were pondering the horrible sin of human
slavery. It is doubtful, of course, that
Jefferson's Deistic thinking led him to imagine an apocalyptic judgment on
America. And Lincoln's enigmatic faith
seemed to lead him to believe that the Civil War itself could be God's
judgment.
The prophets of the Old Testament pronounced
judgments on the nations around them, often seeing those judgments worked out
by other nations. Even God's covenant
nation of Israel was not exempt; in fact, judgment seems more pronounced
against that nation.
The New Testament does not seem as concerned
with the nations as with the human race as a whole and with individual human
beings. However, there are a few
passages that do stand out, most having to do with the end of this age.
One that I have written on before is Matthew
25:31-46 (SHEEP OR GOATS). Jesus is speaking of His
return in glory to reign on earth. The
nations are to be gathered before Him and are to go either into His Kingdom or
into eternal fire. The criteria are not
given as their sexual conduct or their violence; they are judged solely on
their treatment of those whom Jesus terms "the least of these" -- the
hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the unclothed, the prisoner.
Is the good old USA going to be there? Which way will they (we?) be sent?
So Bob, I agree with your comments. I'll not attempt to ascertain "where the
U.S. stands on God's spectrum of sin."
But I do believe that God holds this nation accountable.
My task, however, as a follower of Christ is
primarily to follow Him, to hold myself accountable and not be preoccupied with
America's destiny, but the destiny of the people of America that I am in
contact with.
See also: THE TWO KINGDOMS.
See also: THE TWO KINGDOMS.
5 comments:
Bill said: Jesus is speaking of His return in glory to reign on earth. The nations are to be gathered before Him and are to go either into His Kingdom or into eternal fire.
This makes no sense and shows the superstitious, illogical nature of Christianity.
Using this criteria, you can pretty much bet that 5 billion of the 7 billion people alive today are going to hell, simply by chance because of where they live. 2 billion Christians have a chance at this mythical heaven, but many of them are probably going to join those heathens in hell.
Let's say half.
So that leaves 1/7 of the population goes straight to hell and repeat for every past generation and future generation.
How monstrous!
I'm glad there is no reason to believe this whatsoever. I also wonder how Christians sleep at night, thinking their God is going to burn ETERNALLY almost the entirety of the human population, past and present.
Hi Canadian Atheist,
Can't speak for Bill, but I hate the idea of hell as much as you do. Sometimes I lie awake at night because of the horror of the concept.
However, the real question isn't about hell or the number of people who might go there. The real question is who was Jesus Christ? If He was merely a man then who gives a fig what he thought or taught about anything? But if He was our creator who entered our race so we might live forever, it makes sense to hear what He's got to say.
The great majority of references to hell come from Christ Himself, and he said He came to rescue us from it.
But He's a perfect gentleman and He never forces Himself on anyone. If we spend our lives pushing Him away--making it clear we want nothing to do with Him, He will eventually step aside and leave us entirely alone.
And that will be hell.
Bob
Hello Bob,
You said: Can't speak for Bill, but I hate the idea of hell as much as you do. Sometimes I lie awake at night because of the horror of the concept.
Yes. It's mental abuse. I can totally understand why you're afraid. It's an evil concept and one the church has used to make people afraid to look too deeply into their faith.
You said: However, the real question isn't about hell or the number of people who might go there.
I think it's part of the question. Religious people are always talking about Gods plan. That's some plan isn't it? To have at least 6/7 of the population burning for eternity in every single generation. It shows how ridiculous this religion is.
You said: The real question is who was Jesus Christ? If He was merely a man then who gives a fig what he thought or taught about anything? But if He was our creator who entered our race so we might live forever, it makes sense to hear what He's got to say.
I think he was just a man. Do you think the same way about Zeus, Odin, Muhammad? What happens if Hercules was really the son of Zeus? Shouldn't we listen to him? What if Muhammad was really a prophet? Shouldn't we listen to him?
It's funny that these prophets disappeared as soon as we could use science to test such claims.
You said: The great majority of references to hell come from Christ Himself, and he said He came to rescue us from it.
Yes, there is no concept of hell in the OT. Funny how it changed, right? That alone should tell you how fake this concept is.
You said: But He's a perfect gentleman and He never forces Himself on anyone. If we spend our lives pushing Him away--making it clear we want nothing to do with Him, He will eventually step aside and leave us entirely alone.
Then he should provide evidence of his existence. I could say the same things you said about the thousands of gods that were believed in before Christianity was even dreamed up.
You said: And that will be hell.
No, that's freedom. It's freedom to think for yourself. That fear you expressed at the beginning of your post will fall away and you won't have to live in fear of a mythical torture chamber. You won't feel guilty for examining the claims of your religion.
Hi Bill,
I wanted to talk a bit more about the United States. Do I believe God holds the United States accountable? You bet. Sin and death are joined together at the chest like Chang and Eng, and one would have to be blind not to notice the sin and death in our country. However, that's not the same thing as stating flatly that we are exactly in the same position as Israel and Judah were in the time of Amos (a contention I heard recently in Sunday school). When Amos warned that the Northern Kingdom was about to be carried into captivity and that later the Southern Kingdom would follow, he was getting his informaion directly from God, not from some prophecy expert in Tulsa.
We simply don't know the mind of God in these matters because He hasn't told us. Isaiah 55:9 says, "As high as the heavens are above the earth, so are My ways than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." To proclaim imminent judgment on the U.S. is to claim insight beyond our abilities.
The U.S. still sends out more missionaries than any country in the world (with South Korea hot on our heels--South Korea recently sent 5 missionaries to New York City--isn't that amusing?); and the U.S. has more Bible-believing congregations than any country in the world (some of them grace-oriented).
Not that any of this negates our country's accountability to God, but it does clarify the issue a bit. A large number of people in the U.S. follow God's principles, and only He knows when sin will (or if) destroy us.
We might even turn around and head in the opposite direction. Who knows? Doubtful, but with God all things are possible. Judy and I have a new memory verse that seems applicable.
Jeremiah 32:17 "Ah Lord God, creator of the heavens and the earth, with Your mighty power and outstretched arms, nothing is too difficult for You."
Best,
Bob
Thanks Bob. Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. I agree.
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